tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post6885222039409672196..comments2023-11-05T04:16:44.937-05:00Comments on Advanced Football Analytics (formerly Advanced NFL Stats): PunishmentUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-7991198408404489872011-11-30T23:27:26.097-05:002011-11-30T23:27:26.097-05:00"If you had included a religious reference in..."If you had included a religious reference in your list of things that sound nice that people cling to for no rational reason, I would've enjoyed it."<br /><br />Tim Tebow?Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13907737499735342663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-81328462089380578592011-11-30T22:12:33.254-05:002011-11-30T22:12:33.254-05:00The NFL is the most boring stupid game on earth! ...The NFL is the most boring stupid game on earth! Just a a bunch of dumb thugs with a shit load of money who will eventually end up in prison!!! (except for Tebow)......who with an IQ above 76.5 gives a darn!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-24655347361111879832011-11-30T14:41:13.418-05:002011-11-30T14:41:13.418-05:00Why was Ndamukong Suh's stomp treated as such ...Why was Ndamukong Suh's stomp treated as such a big deal, when Brian Robison's kick to the groin a month earlier was ignored or just laughed off? Suh was suspended two games, while Robison got a $20,000 fine. Coincidentally, a Packer was on the receiving end each time. (If you don't remember the earlier incident, try googling "robison lang".)Butchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00470617214750867482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-43762735403679975062011-11-29T13:39:54.513-05:002011-11-29T13:39:54.513-05:00Coming back to this post a day later, I think the ...Coming back to this post a day later, I think the one thing that really caused a stir in this post is the idea that rehabilitation was equated with fairy tales and santa claus and not "proven" when behavioral psychology has its roots in the work of physicians and scientists 100 years ago (Ivan Pavlov and classical conditioning), was formed into a ready to use theory and applied 70 years ago (B.F. Skinner and operant conditioning) and has been widely practiced, often to great effect, since the 60's (Metropolitan State Hospital; Massachusetts, AJ Yates at the Institute of Psychiatry, Harve Rawson at Hanover College).Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09259708398358190947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-30016936938654728292011-11-29T10:22:31.355-05:002011-11-29T10:22:31.355-05:00Although I like this post overall, I'm definit...Although I like this post overall, I'm definitely going to have to disagree about Brian's views on rehabilitation. I think there are many situations where rehabilitation is a viable option with good results, although as Steven pointed out some people seem to be lost causes.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01838293735141324662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-47134896196250860152011-11-28T22:45:12.772-05:002011-11-28T22:45:12.772-05:00I'm the resident director of a children's ...I'm the resident director of a children's behavior modification program that routinely treats children and young adults with conduct disorder and have served time in juvenile detention facilities. Our program has been nationally recognized and has been the focus of 25 professional publications. We use operant conditioning to teach our patients socially acceptable behaviors, that will hopefully continue to be reinforced after they leave the safety of our facilities. We never use punishment as a way of deterring behavior because every behavior has a purpose. It's the frequency and the conditions during which the behavior occurs that makes it acceptable or unacceptable. For instance, picking one's nose in public, every minute of every day is a socially deviant behavior, but not when one is isolated and has something clogging it. If one were punished every time one picked their nose, it leads to other deviant behaviors to try to avoid the punishment. That's why we use 100 percent positive reinforcement. We teach them new behaviors and give them the opportunity to practice those behaviors in different environments so that they can replace the negative ones that got them to us in the first place, but not eliminate the behavior entirely and leave them vulnerable (think a Clockwork Orange). While Brian is correct that punishment is not much use as a means of rehabilitation, he fails to mention that rehabilitation can be done in a useful way. Missouri is leading the way in this form of rehabilitation while being "punished." <br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/27/us/27juvenile.html<br /><br />As to what all this means for Suh, maybe it will give him some time to think about his actions and change his behaviors (like it did with Mike Vick and Ben Roethlisberger), or maybe he'll continue to be in a state of cognitive dissonance (Adam Jones, Albert Hanesworth, etc.)Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09259708398358190947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-25923930958598970052011-11-28T17:19:12.073-05:002011-11-28T17:19:12.073-05:00for the record, Suh has already been punished for...for the record, Suh has already been punished for his actions. He was penalized on the play, and it allowed green bay to score 4 extra points.<br /><br />Additionally, he was ejected from the game (i.e. given an immediate suspension).<br /><br />Personally, I think all the fake outrage is pretty ridiculous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-81522683137355347122011-11-28T11:21:51.903-05:002011-11-28T11:21:51.903-05:00The reasons I've always cited when making simi...The reasons I've always cited when making similar arguments about why we jail criminals were deterrence, rehabilitation, "incapacitation" (although I didn't call it that), and punishment. Punishment is, in the end, sort of a sanitized, societal version of retribution. I never mentioned restitution because in the context of most crimes that pup people in prison, it's not usually meaningful.<br /><br />Rehabilitation has a lot of value in some contexts, but I don't think this is one of them. I suspect that Suh will eventually come to realize that it was a stupid thing to do and have sincere regret that doesn't simply stem from disliking the punishment, but that will come with time and probably won't happen over the course of the next two games.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm guessing he gets a 2 game suspension, maybe 3. This wasn't nearly as malicious, to my eyes, as the Haynesworth incident, which garnered 5 games. That said, Goddell is cracking down a lot, so he might not use that punishment as a precedent.Tarrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14368810359650066790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-65462416866540141532011-11-28T09:34:56.487-05:002011-11-28T09:34:56.487-05:00This reminds of criminal law class. I would add a...This reminds of criminal law class. I would add another category for punishment, which is society's "psychological satisfaction" This is sort of related to Prevention of Retribution, but a little different. If society feels there is no justice, there may not be retribution, but it may be bad for society to function. In this case, fans may be simply turned off by the NFL if there were no punishment, so in order to placate or satisfy the fans, Suh needs to be punished.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-73846944959262124482011-11-28T08:22:56.913-05:002011-11-28T08:22:56.913-05:00Our society's rule of law should apply on the ...Our society's rule of law should apply on the gridiron, too. There's probable cause for assault, so he should be arrested.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-31611367163396377272011-11-28T00:08:37.884-05:002011-11-28T00:08:37.884-05:00If it's such a straw man, knock it over.If it's such a straw man, knock it over.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-36674594988134488722011-11-27T23:51:58.519-05:002011-11-27T23:51:58.519-05:00Rather than provide a definition of rehabilitation...Rather than provide a definition of rehabilitation that is such a thinly veiled straw-man argument, you should just have left it out altogether. I appreciate your insight into nearly everything you are blogging about, but you are revealing your limits here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-43362213557041584552011-11-27T22:02:33.925-05:002011-11-27T22:02:33.925-05:00You argue that an instinctive act is harder to det...You argue that an instinctive act is harder to deter than a premeditated act, so the penalty has to be higher to achieve the same level of deterrence. But why should we necessarily balance the deterrence between instinctive and premeditated acts? If we suppose that tougher penalties carry higher inherent costs (cost of staffing prisons and preventing fathers from raising their kids; keeping the best players out of the game), it may make sense to spend more preventing the behavior that is cheaper to prevent and accept a higher level of the behavior that is expensive to deter.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090531523789747157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-32727202016133083192011-11-27T20:50:07.545-05:002011-11-27T20:50:07.545-05:00I just assumed religion was covered under the head...I just assumed religion was covered under the heading "fairy tales" :)<br /><br />Anyway, good discussion of punishment and the reasons for it. I think you are little overly skeptical about rehabilitation, especially when it comes to young offenders.<br /><br />As for Suh, the funniest thing about him is the way the media treats him. You always here phrases like "he is a great player and a beast, but..." Where the second part is about how he needs to restrain himself more (wait I thought he was a beast?). They seem to not want to acknowledge that it is just that animal aggression and violent action that make him a great player. Always running right on the edge. If you run right on the edge occasionally you will slide over, that is how running on the edge works. You cannot have Suh and have him meek and rule following, or at least it is a lot harder and not at all probable.<br /><br />I happen to know several professional athletes personally, and frankly a lot of them are hyper-competitive A-holes with no sense of the proper importance of things. But this is what makes them able to be professional athletes. If they were more normal mellow guys they never would have pushed themselves to the highest levels of what is at heart a children's game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-1352127659766370242011-11-27T20:21:41.807-05:002011-11-27T20:21:41.807-05:00That would have been pointless at best, and trolli...That would have been pointless at best, and trollish at worst.Jonathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-10811490220061698892011-11-27T20:21:15.070-05:002011-11-27T20:21:15.070-05:00@Anonymous - I think Brian might have said "s...@Anonymous - I think Brian might have said "scientifically testable" reason or something similar. There's a very rational region to for religion - it makes some people happy. A person married to a deeply religious spouse and who has very religious friends and who enjoys attending church is probably not acting rationally if they go out of their way to risk their faith by reading Dawkins or the like. Likewise the NFL commentator who talks about momentum entertains the semi-literate masses who leave comments on Yahoo! NFL articles that a) justify performance of all players on racial grounds and/or b) justify performance based on who "wanted it more." <br /><br />As I understand the concept of rationality that NFL commentator would be following it, even if I personally find the behavior objectionable.sunrise089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38600807.post-91263716976485540442011-11-27T18:18:18.739-05:002011-11-27T18:18:18.739-05:00If you had included a religious reference in your ...If you had included a religious reference in your list of things that sound nice that people cling to for no rational reason, I would've enjoyed it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com